Author Topic: This is seriously ****ed up  (Read 9258 times)

Offline Persephone

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Re: This is seriously ****ed up
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2009, 03:12:36 AM »
Huh. I missed one. Where'd you find that?

Sorry, It was a verbal quote during the Q&A at MileHiCon Oct 08, in Denver. Someone posed a question in regard to his BETA readers. He mentioned that it was full, and went on to say that he's really hard to work with, and doesn't understand WHY anyone would want the job. He also compared the job to "asking someone to point out the warts on your baby".
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Offline Shecky

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Re: This is seriously ****ed up
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2009, 03:18:27 AM »
Got it. He's NOT hard to work with - he's a HELL of a lot EASIER than I actually expected, to be honest. But the bit about "asking someone to point out the warts on your baby"... yeah, that would suck. Then again, when they're removable warts, everybody's happy in the end. :D
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Re: This is seriously ****ed up
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2009, 12:26:58 AM »
Got it. He's NOT hard to work with - he's a HELL of a lot EASIER than I actually expected, to be honest. But the bit about "asking someone to point out the warts on your baby"... yeah, that would suck. Then again, when they're removable warts, everybody's happy in the end. :D

A better question, to my mind, is how critical do you think you can be with an author you like, and do you avoid telling him about any warts you've spotted?

Offline Starbeam

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Re: This is seriously ****ed up
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2009, 12:36:25 AM »
A better question, to my mind, is how critical do you think you can be with an author you like, and do you avoid telling him about any warts you've spotted?

Considering the reference is about beta readers, and granted I could be wrong, but I believe that's what their job is.
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Re: This is seriously ****ed up
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2009, 12:47:43 AM »
Considering the reference is about beta readers, and granted I could be wrong, but I believe that's what their job is.

I am asking how difficult that job is.

Offline Shecky

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Re: This is seriously ****ed up
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2009, 01:09:27 AM »
I am asking how difficult that job is.

Not at all difficult. We're not there to blow sunshine up his ass; we're there to help him make sure his work is as good as possible. Starbeam had it right - it's our job. Not a privilege, not a right - it's our job. It's one we LIKE, to be sure, but we have to take it fully seriously.
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Offline Persephone

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Re: This is seriously ****ed up
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2009, 11:18:48 PM »
*must mention how insanely jealous she is to hear that Shecky IS a BETA*

Lucky asterisk...  ;)
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Re: This is seriously ****ed up
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2009, 12:04:13 AM »
*must mention how insanely jealous she is to hear that Shecky IS a BETA*

Hmph.   Not so sure I share that.   Imagine having a smaller scale version of *this board* and actually having to keep the discussion cogent, goal-directed, and within deadline.      Kurding Hats.

Offline LizW65

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Re: This is seriously ****ed up
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2009, 12:16:15 AM »
Query:  At what point does a professional writer such as Jim cease to take the advice of betas and just go his own route?  I can understand beta readers being a useful tool for a beginning writer, but Jim has over a dozen successful books under his belt.  Isn't it the job of an editor to catch errors in the text?  How much say do betas actually have in the direction a story takes?  Or am I completely misunderstanding their role in the creative process?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 02:15:29 AM by LizW65 »
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Re: This is seriously ****ed up
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2009, 04:00:38 AM »
I can understand beta readers being a useful tool for a beginning writer, but Jim has over a dozen successful books under his belt. 

I imagine there is also the issue of pacing.   I mean, if you really want to wait 6+ years for Susan to come back in book 13...

Offline Shecky

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Re: This is seriously ****ed up
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2009, 05:06:52 AM »
Query:  At what point does a professional writer such as Jim cease to take the advice of betas and just go his own route?  I can understand beta readers being a useful tool for a beginning writer, but Jim has over a dozen successful books under his belt.  Isn't it the job of an editor to catch errors in the text?  How much say do betas actually have in the direction a story takes?  Or am I completely misunderstanding their role in the creative process?

Why would they cease? I've heard more than one writer say something to the effect of "When you, as a writer, start to think you're really on the top of your game, that's when you REALLY start to learn." Extra sets of eyes and brains are ALWAYS good to have around - with a group of betas, you can start to get an idea of how the readership is going to react to things, something an editor just isn't as equipped to do, no matter how much experience he has. Betas have as much "say" as the writer thinks they should have; I will say that a self-honest writer will ALWAYS listen to criticism... how he responds to it, if at all, depends on a number of things, mainly whether or not it IS a good suggestion. :)
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Offline Knight_Wanderer

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Re: This is seriously ****ed up
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2009, 08:43:39 AM »
Query:  At what point does a professional writer such as Jim cease to take the advice of betas and just go his own route?  I can understand beta readers being a useful tool for a beginning writer, but Jim has over a dozen successful books under his belt.  Isn't it the job of an editor to catch errors in the text?  How much say do betas actually have in the direction a story takes?  Or am I completely misunderstanding their role in the creative process?

It basically goes back to what JB said about them pointing out the things the writer already knows - or at least suspects - are wrong.  Readers point out the writer's blind spots regarding their own works, catch continuity errors (if possible), point out passages or character moments that don't ring true, and reinforce the creeping suspicions the writer already has about his own work, etc.  They aren't there to dictate plot points, rewrite sections, etc.  Personally, there have been VERY few instances in which a reader of my own has pointed something out where my immediate and continued reaction is "Wow, you're just dead wrong."  Usually the feedback immediately makes sense, somewhat more rarely it will make sense after I ruminate on it a few days.

I'd also like to point out something a professor of mine once said in college.  The audience is NEVER WRONG, no matter what they think or say about a piece of art.  Art is a subjective medium, hence, whatever the audience thinks is always correct for that particular person.  Telling a person he/she is wrong about their reaction to art is . . .  well, kind of foolish.  What the creator has to do is weigh each individual's reaction to the art.
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Offline Persephone

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Re: This is seriously ****ed up
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2009, 09:49:48 AM »
Hmph.   Not so sure I share that.   Imagine having a smaller scale version of *this board* and actually having to keep the discussion cogent, goal-directed, and within deadline.      Kurding Hats.

I am primarily jealous of ANYONE who has extended access to Jims level of AWESOME. I met him once in person and am that much more obsessed with doing it again. *not in a creepy stalker way* *more in an "OMG you are the coolest person I've ever met! we should hang out!" kinda way*
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Offline Shecky

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Re: This is seriously ****ed up
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2009, 12:34:59 PM »
Hmph.   Not so sure I share that.   Imagine having a smaller scale version of *this board* and actually having to keep the discussion cogent, goal-directed, and within deadline.      Kurding Hats.

I think it's the fact that it IS partially a "smaller-scale version of this board" that actually makes it work so well. Discussions grow organically, and there are often aspects and issues that don't come up in restrictively managed conversations. Besides, as has been said more than once, the initial structure of the commentary IS organized; it's any further discussion that grows beyond that.
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Offline LizW65

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Re: This is seriously ****ed up
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2009, 02:40:21 PM »
  They aren't there to dictate plot points, rewrite sections, etc. 
(snipped for space)

Oh, okay.  This is mainly the part I was curious about.
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