Jim's stand on fic?

[Infamous as Elle!]

But... but... you would've deprived moviegoers of all that CGI goodiness?!?

ROFLcopter for you!

[Infamous as Elle!]

Nah, I liked the 2nd Matrix movie....I just think they shot themselves in the foot with their ending of the first one.

Jordans books dragged...plot points didn't move, characters stagnated, a whole host of new minor characters were introduced....and some of them started out as more powerful than a bunch of the mains, who were already far more powerful than the norm.

Basically, it seemed like he'd lost the thread of his story and it was flailing everywhich way, like a firehose that's turned on with no one holding it.
Some water hit the fire, but it wasn't a concentrated stream.

Jordan is foggy territory for me since I've never read any of his books.....now if you talk to me about Anne Rice and great big huge feckin' books full of stupidity, pointless characters and nothing, I'm sitting right over here.

[DragonFire]

But... but... you would've deprived moviegoers of all that CGI goodiness?!?

My biggest probelm with Matrix Reloaded?

The completely gratuitous Zion orgy scene.
I mean, wtf??

[DragonFire]

Jordan is foggy territory for me since I've never read any of his books.....now if you talk to me about Anne Rice and great big huge feckin' books full of stupidity, pointless characters and nothing, I'm sitting right over here.

I refuse to read Anne Rice...partly for that reason, mostly because I don't like her stuff.

[Shecky]

Nah, I liked the 2nd Matrix movie....I just think they shot themselves in the foot with their ending of the first one.

Jordans books dragged...plot points didn't move, characters stagnated, a whole host of new minor characters were introduced....and some of them started out as more powerful than a bunch of the mains, who were already far more powerful than the norm.

Basically, it seemed like he'd lost the thread of his story and it was flailing everywhich way, like a firehose that's turned on with no one holding it.
Some water hit the fire, but it wasn't a concentrated stream.

I've tried, but I always fail to be able to see it this way. I saw it as Jordan creating a real world, with real things and real complications. To me, it made MORE sense for the world to bog itself down into politics and details in order for Tarmon Gai'don to be a REAL Big Deal. Real people lose themselves in the daily minutiae until the Big Deal steps up and nails them all collectively with the Almost Too Late stick. It just wouldn't have the same impact for me if Rand HAD united all the nations and gotten them primed and ready for TG; lessons from real-world wars and the inwardly-turned focus leading up to them are apparent in Jordan's writing.

PS: Oh, and the part-2 giggity? Yeah, that was useless.

[Infamous as Elle!]

My biggest probelm with Matrix Reloaded?

The completely gratuitous Zion orgy scene.
I mean, wtf??

You mean you need to have a plot around porn.....err....orgy scenes?

[DragonFire]

You mean you need to have a plot around porn.....err....orgy scenes?

Not if it's a porn movie.

Otherwise, yeah, I'd like to know why, exactly, my characters feel the need to suddenly engage in massive, indiscriminate dance party sex.

The one time I'll relax that stand is the movie is about anthropomorphic bunnies.

[DragonFire]

I've tried, but I always fail to be able to see it this way. I saw it as Jordan creating a real world, with real things and real complications. To me, it made MORE sense for the world to bog itself down into politics and details in order for Tarmon Gai'don to be a REAL Big Deal. Real people lose themselves in the daily minutiae until the Big Deal steps up and nails them all collectively with the Almost Too Late stick. It just wouldn't have the same impact for me if Rand HAD united all the nations and gotten them primed and ready for TG; lessons from real-world wars and the inwardly-turned focus leading up to them are apparent in Jordan's writing.

PS: Oh, and the part-2 giggity? Yeah, that was useless.

The problems with Elayne claiming the throne, I could see.

Some of Rand's problems, I could.

The crap with Perrin running around going 'Faile!!!!!".....no.
The sniffing, the crap with all the women with 'strong personalities' trying to push each other around....
It was just boring.

And it wasn't that it was there...that can be dealt with. It was more that the plot did not ADVANCE at all, and all this crap was around for 3 books. Nothing changed. Nothing got better. Nothing was resolved for good or ill.

I can see the real world lessons you're talking about but.....it's a fantast book series. It does contain an element of just hand waving away stuff that 'wouldn't happen in the real world'.

[Infamous as Elle!]

The one time I'll relax that stand is the movie is about anthropomorphic bunnies.

I must have really missed that one!

[DragonFire]

I must have really missed that one!

Umm..hopefully it has not, and will never be, made.

[Infamous as Elle!]

Umm..hopefully it has not, and will never be, made.

I am definitely with you on that one!

[Shecky]

The problems with Elayne claiming the throne, I could see.

Some of Rand's problems, I could.

The crap with Perrin running around going 'Faile!!!!!".....no.
The sniffing, the crap with all the women with 'strong personalities' trying to push each other around....
It was just boring.

And it wasn't that it was there...that can be dealt with. It was more that the plot did not ADVANCE at all, and all this crap was around for 3 books. Nothing changed. Nothing got better. Nothing was resolved for good or ill.

I can see the real world lessons you're talking about but.....it's a fantast book series. It does contain an element of just hand waving away stuff that 'wouldn't happen in the real world'.

I understand your stance perfectly and even sympathize - it's a book and should cut to the chase, right? The thing is that people do obsess over their own little corner even in the face of Worldwide Doom, and jerks remain jerks. People don't just see the global problem and magically stand shoulder-to-shoulder, even the ones who have personally SEEN the path to destruction with their own eyes. The "me and mine" syndrome for some of the better-minded, while the more self-centered batten down the hatches on the S.S. Jerkwad. As much as Jordania gynocracy and its inevitable mulishness irritate me, it's very much in keeping with What People Really Are.

It bugs me as a reader-for-entertainment, too, yes, but I respect Jordan's world-building even more as a result.

[DragonFire]

I understand your stance perfectly and even sympathize - it's a book and should cut to the chase, right? The thing is that people do obsess over their own little corner even in the face of Worldwide Doom, and jerks remain jerks. People don't just see the global problem and magically stand shoulder-to-shoulder, even the ones who have personally SEEN the path to destruction with their own eyes. The "me and mine" syndrome for some of the better-minded, while the more self-centered batten down the hatches on the S.S. Jerkwad. As much as Jordania gynocracy and its inevitable mulishness irritate me, it's very much in keeping with What People Really Are.

It bugs me as a reader-for-entertainment, too, yes, but I respect Jordan's world-building even more as a result.

Nah, it's not so much cut to the chase...it's that' the earlier books also had this stuff in it, but the plot took it in stride....there was a plan, it was heading down a track , and while things like this happened...it didn't derail the book.

In teh later ones, it seemed like he wasn't sure what to do with a scene, or he got bored with his mains, so he spent a LOT of time on some of his minors....just unfocused writing, rather than focused.

[Mickey Finn]

Ha ha!  So it becomes kind of like what some said about the second Matrix movie?  That it could have been easily integrated into the last movie, still been viable and not been such a waste of money or time with very little plot?
*****

You have that backwards...they could have taken the invasion of Zion out of the 3rd movie, tossed away the rest, and put it in the 2nd. As it is, they set up a whole bunch of SMART scifi in the 2nd, then tossed it out for the 3rd and replaced it with the Second Coming nonsense.

As for Jim, remember folks, he's not stomping on fan fic, he's not jackbooting about...he is asking not to know, so he doesn't HAVE to, by law, take action. IE, he doesn't give a damn, and would rather not be made to give a damn.

[Shecky]

Nah, it's not so much cut to the chase...it's that' the earlier books also had this stuff in it, but the plot took it in stride....there was a plan, it was heading down a track , and while things like this happened...it didn't derail the book.

In teh later ones, it seemed like he wasn't sure what to do with a scene, or he got bored with his mains, so he spent a LOT of time on some of his minors....just unfocused writing, rather than focused.

This goes to my point; I feel it was intended to be this way, to show that the people in the plot are unfocused, as discussed above. The Rand-machine, the Dragon's situation, was smaller earlier in the story; as such, it was easier to maneuver. But once everything gets too big, people's minds simply can't wrap themselves around it and retreat to the safety of the familiar - i.e., personal power, wishes, etc. - and it all falls apart. It's not that Jordan's writing became unfocused in my thought; it's that the characters themselves became unfocused.