More Info Please

[Roaram]

I am an aspiring writer, and have been reading every article that I can get my hands on aboout what new writers do wrong. I have seen many article that say don't tell show, beware the info dump, and don't jump point of view too much or eratically.

And I get it too. The problem is, as I see it, all my favorite Authors change point of view. now I see info dumps and say "yeesh", and I notice when the writing retreats into blurred motion, when I would love to see the action (even Jim sometimes) but the POV I don't get.
I was wondering if anyone had professional examples or knew where to get them of awell written scene(s) vs the same scene done poorly?  I just want examples, either from a publisher or published writer so I know what not to do, thanks.

[Starbeam]

You'll always see the authors doing exactly what they say not to do.  Stephen King is a big one on that.  He says not to use a lot of words or go overboard on adverbs, and such, and then when you read his books, he's very verbose when he really doesn't need to be.  With POV, it's more for someone who's beginning to write.  It's a whole lot easier to keep track of one person's POV than it is to keep track of something like 15 different POVs.  Sort of like the difference between any book written in first person, and a George R R Martin book, or a Robert Jordan book.  The more POV characters that are introduced, the more difficult it gets for the reader to follow along.  Plus, it's pretty rare that you'll find any author that changes POV character in the middle of a scene. 

I'd say the main reason that you do see authors doing what they've said not to do is simple.  Basically, it comes down to the fact that you have to know the rules before you can break em.  When I first started one of my fantasy pieces, I started in first person.  When I started a rewrite in third person, I had three POV characters.  With the most recent rewrite attempt, that's changed to something like 5.  For me, it has to do with becoming more confident in my writing and being able to handle multiple characters clamoring in my head to have their say.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I'd say the main reason that you do see authors doing what they've said not to do is simple.  Basically, it comes down to the fact that you have to know the rules before you can break em. 

If you are good enough, you can break any rule you like.  If you are genius-level good, you can write an epic poem in a Christmas card to your friends and win a World Fantasy Award for it. (John M. Ford's "Winter Solstice, Camelot Station.") 

People write in very different ways, and still succeed. The interesting thing about King's writing advice in On Writing, for example, as illuminated by the biographical stuff in the same book, is that his advice on revision patterns seems to correlate really well with him having a lousy memory in the ways he describes; I know pretty successful published writers who are absolutely the opposite, can hardly revise at all because the text sticks in their memory so and they have to get it right first time.

Do what serves the story best.  The Song of Ice and Fire books could not be done as a single POV. Cryptonomicon and the Baroque Cycle would not work without infodumps written so well they are an art form in themself.  And so on.  But know what you are doing first. There is no universal "what not to do" - except being pushy with editors at conventions. There is only what works or does not work in a given scene.

[AverageGuy]

but the POV I don't get.

Figure out a structure for your POVs.  Mostly you don't want to shift POVs from one sentence to another.  One of the simple ways to keep them separate is to have chapter breaks or

#

page breaks.  At least make sure you start a new paragraph when switching POVs.  Finally, be careful if you do rapidly alternate paragraphs between the POVs of characters A, B, and C: ABCBCBACABC.  To a point you can do this in the omniscient POV, and it actually happens in some older books (though maybe not quite that fast).  Try reading most anything published in the 70's/80's and you'll eventually run across it.  The real point is that you don't want to confuse the reader about who's doing/saying what, who knows what, etc.

[Uilos]

If you are good enough, you can break any rule you like.  If you are genius-level good, you can write an epic poem in a Christmas card to your friends and win a World Fantasy Award for it. (John M. Ford's "Winter Solstice, Camelot Station.") 

People write in very different ways, and still succeed. The interesting thing about King's writing advice in On Writing, for example, as illuminated by the biographical stuff in the same book, is that his advice on revision patterns seems to correlate really well with him having a lousy memory in the ways he describes; I know pretty successful published writers who are absolutely the opposite, can hardly revise at all because the text sticks in their memory so and they have to get it right first time.

Do what serves the story best.  The Song of Ice and Fire books could not be done as a single POV. Cryptonomicon and the Baroque Cycle would not work without infodumps written so well they are an art form in themself.  And so on.  But know what you are doing first. There is no universal "what not to do" - except being pushy with editors at conventions. There is only what works or does not work in a given scene.

I agree with Neuro on this one. I had something of a Benevolent Tyrant for a writing teacher. he loved ya, but you gotta write it his way.

Anywho, while bitching about it to a friend/teacher, he replied "Learn the rules to the game, then break em as you see fit."

[meg_evonne]

There is an old book of short stories, rather dated, but it works its way through POV with a description before hand, then a couple short stories as good examples.  I'll try to get the title to you if I can find it.  Sort of a handy reference, but it was dated.  Or at least the examples were clear cut, compared to modern, more free flowing methods. 

Chris got back to me in record time:  She writes: In terms of the POV book, it is cleverly titled _Points of View_ and is edited by James Moffett and Kenneth R McElheny (revised edition, 1995, original 1966. Mentor Books).  Honestly I have no idea if it has been updated/revised or replaced in the canon. A thorough Amazon search might turn up something similar, but this book, as I remember it, includes some really fine short stories by good authors.


My comments:  plus the stories were very clearly and solidly in the varioius points of view.  No way to mis-understand where the author was positioning the reader.